ARI SHAPIRO, HOST:
More than 1,500 people who participated in the January 6 assault on the Capitol four years ago got a pardon from President Trump this week. Our next guest turned down the offer of clemency. Pamela Hemphill is 71 years old. She served 60 days in jail on a misdemeanor charge for her role in the insurrection. And when President Trump posted on social media in June of 2023 that her sentence was horrible, she replied, I'm not a victim of Jan. 6. I pleaded guilty because I was guilty. Pamela Hemphill joins us from Boise, Idaho. Welcome to ALL THINGS CONSIDERED.
PAMELA HEMPHILL: Oh, well, thank you for inviting me.
SHAPIRO: You pleaded guilty to a single misdemeanor charge of parading, demonstrating or picketing in the Capitol building. Why did you not want a pardon from President Trump?
HEMPHILL: Oh, well, you know, it would be a slap in the face to the Capitol police officers, to the rule of law, to our whole nation. I would be contributing to their false propaganda - that they continue to gaslight the nation and everyone that it was a peaceful protest. You know, I broke the law that day - period, black and white. I'm not a victim. I'm a volunteer. And I don't want to be a part of them trying to rewrite history what really happened that day. So if I took a pardon, I'm saying, yeah, it's OK what I did that day. No, it was not OK.
SHAPIRO: Do you think anyone should be pardoned for their actions on January 6?
HEMPHILL: No. No. Not one - I've studied a lot of these cases. No, not at all.
SHAPIRO: Was it difficult for you to come to terms with the idea that the image you had on January 6, 2021, was wrong?
HEMPHILL: Oh, yes. It's like, how was I so naive? Well, I see now how I was because it's a cult. And you get gaslighted, and they lie to you and say there's this deep state and the DOJ is against Trump and all this garbage. And, you know, you're listening to people with two Ph.Ds. You don't question them. And then Giuliani, you know, he was a hero in New York. I mean, why would you question them? Why would you think they're lying?
SHAPIRO: You've clearly gone from one extreme to the other. Do you find that you are still able to have conversations with people who marched alongside you on the day of the insurrection? Are you able to talk to people on their terms and reach any kind of a common understanding or are you just speaking different languages at this point?
HEMPHILL: Oh, different languages. Oh, no - no matter what you say, they usually can't handle it, and they'll walk away if I say, hey, let's sit down. Let me show you something that you haven't heard. Listen to this side of the story - 'cause, you know, that's why we have divorce courts 'cause there's always two sides of a story, right? I want to hear both sides. They don't. They do not want to hear anything that goes up against Trump, and that's what's so dangerous right now - no critical thinking.
SHAPIRO: And so what's this moment like for you when you served your time behind bars, you had the exchange on social media that went viral, you got attention as the person who people referred to as the MAGA Granny, and then you were kind of living your life until this moment that all of these pardons came down and you said no, thank you?
HEMPHILL: It's been horrible - the attacks (ph) and what I've had to go through to keep my voice out there because this is my amends - to change the narrative of January 6. It's so important that people have the facts. They do not give you the truth. They give you propaganda that can be debunked by researchers, court records. So their narrative is all for Trump 'cause Trump is a criminal. He broke the law. He has to keep this narrative going that the DOJ is weaponized against him and his followers, and we know that is not true. There's been enough evidence to prove that.
SHAPIRO: Pamela Hemphill, thank you very much for speaking with us.
HEMPHILL: Oh, thank you very much, sir.
SHAPIRO: And we want to remind you that President Trump was found guilty of falsifying business records before he took office. He was given an unconditional discharge, which means he did not have to serve jail time, but the conviction stays on his record. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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