AILSA CHANG, HOST:
As Greenland looks ahead to parliamentary elections next month, it's also taking steps to stop other countries from interfering with its political future. Last week, it banned political contributions from foreign entities.
MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST:
The ban marks one of the latest responses to the Trump administration's ambitions to acquire Greenland from Denmark. And those ambitions are not new. John Bolton was there during Trump's first term, when talks about an acquisition came up in 2019. He served first as U.S. ambassador to the United Nations, then as national security adviser. Trump fired Bolton that same year. They have not publicly agreed on much since.
CHANG: But Bolton told our cohost Juana Summers why he does think there is still a case for American expansion into Greenland.
JOHN BOLTON: Greenland has been important to the United States for a long time. There's a long history here. And right now, we're concerned about Chinese and Russian efforts in the Arctic Ocean and the transit routes out of the Arctic Ocean, particularly into the North Atlantic, to undermine our strategic position. We're concerned about some quite likely very valuable mineral rights and other aspects of Greenland that really are important to the security of Canada, the United States, the entire NATO alliance. And I think these are the sorts of issues that we really need to focus on. There's a lot of distraction in the atmosphere about Greenland and how to deal with it, but these are national security issues of critical importance to us and to our NATO allies as well.
JUANA SUMMERS, HOST:
Obviously, a possible acquisition of Greenland is a sensitive topic for many. You've talked in the past about President Trump's plans to negotiate with Denmark to buy Greenland during his first term, and you've said that he effectively blew up any possibility of that happening by airing those plans publicly before privately raising them with Danish leaders. So to achieve the kinds of strategic security goals that exist in the region now, what kind of path forward do you think there is?
BOLTON: Well, I'd be happy if everybody started to just put it behind them and not discuss it publicly. It's obviously sensitive both for the government of Denmark and for the local government in Greenland. And by making outrageous statements, including refusing to rule out the use of force, Trump is getting in his own way. He's making it harder to reach a solution that everybody might agree on because in a democratic society, when you act like you're a playground bully, you put other democratic leaders in a difficult position. You're driving them into a corner. It's making it much harder for them to think about ways that we can find something that's mutually acceptable. So this was true in 2019, and, you know, we've lost almost six years. And he's come close to doing it again. I think reasonable people can put it back together, but all of this discussion has been a waste of time.
SUMMERS: So Greenland, as you know, would have to, in all likelihood, vote for independence from Denmark first in order to become a U.S. territory. And as you know, Greenland's prime minister has repeatedly said Greenlanders do not want to be Danish, and they don't want to be American either. So I'd like to ask you, Ambassador, in your diplomatic expertise, how could the U.S. best make the case to Greenlandic citizens and leaders who clearly have strong feelings about their own autonomy, their own independence?
BOLTON: Well, there are arrangements, even with U.S. sovereignty, that would give them considerable independence in all local matters. They could become a commonwealth of the United States, like Puerto Rico is. And beyond that, there are other things that exist, like the 1951 Defense of Greenland treaty, which is a bilateral treaty between the U.S. and Denmark. We could work on that. And even if Greenland became independent, I certainly hope they would be a NATO member if they decided on that. It's hard to talk about all these publicly with so much at stake, but there are a range of options. And I do think if we could just get back on an even keel here and stop thinking about Trump casinos in the capital of Greenland, Nuuk, on the beach, it would be a lot easier to get things accomplished.
SUMMERS: You mentioned the casino, so I do want to ask you about that. You've mentioned that Trump wants to potentially put a casino in Greenland's capital. I know in - back in 2019, he posted a tweet that promised not to put up a Trump property there. To your own knowledge, has he said on record that he might want to put a casino in Nuuk?
BOLTON: Well, it was just this sort of juvenile thing that - to put out a picture of a casino there and say, but I'm not going to do it. I don't think it was well received in Greenland, let's put it that way. And this is a very serious matter. It's another indication on issues that have enormous national security implications. Trump doesn't see the gravity of what he's dealing with and the harm that can be caused by these kinds of playground-level statements.
SUMMERS: Regardless of what we can tell about the president's motivations, a lot of people who are watching him in his first few weeks in office think that the current rhetoric on Greenland, when you take it alongside what he has had to say about Canada or the Panama Canal, as well as Gaza, that it signals a shift to a new era of American imperialism and trying to take over other sovereign places. So I'm curious what you would say to that part of the discourse, and whether you think that concerns about security should outweigh concerns about independence and colonialism.
BOLTON: Well, I think the U.S. is about the least imperialist major power in human history. I think our record is not entirely clear on that, but it's much different from almost every other great power over the course of recorded history. And I think that to say that Trump has created a new doctrine or he has a new policy is the most inaccurate thing of all because Trump doesn't have a philosophy. He doesn't have a national security grand strategy. He doesn't do policy in the way we conventionally understand that.
And so I think all of these things, although he mentioned them at one point all in one statement, do not form a coherent strategy, and in fact, simply the way he presents them makes it more difficult for him and the United States to achieve the objectives that he says he wants. You know, people say, well, that's the way he negotiates in business. And I just ask most business people, do you - with respect to your customers and suppliers, do you slap them around publicly frequently? Does that help your business or hurt it? Trump doesn't seem to get the point there.
SUMMERS: Ambassador Bolton, if a purchase of Greenland does not come to pass, what other moves do you want to see the Trump administration make to address all of these concerns around security and the economy in the Arctic that we've been discussing?
BOLTON: Well, I think it would be good to have a strategy that the United States could apply to dealing with these threats in the Arctic. I can tell you that the Russians have spent decades thinking about this. They're far ahead of us. And the Chinese, who aspire to become an Arctic power - which we should recognize what they're doing -I think are also way ahead of us. Now, strategic thinking is not Donald Trump's strength. But he's got a cabinet that can do it, and I think we need to do it sooner rather than later. And I think - and we discussed this a little bit during Trump's first term - how we involve other Arctic powers, which are all now NATO members that Finland and Sweden have joined NATO, so we've got a forum to do it, and we shouldn't lose any time.
SUMMERS: We've been speaking with John Bolton, former national security adviser and former United States Ambassador to the U.N. Ambassador Bolton, thank you for your time.
BOLTON: Thanks for having me.
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KELLY: And a note - NPR reached out to the White House in response to Bolton's remarks. National Security Council spokesperson Brian Hughes wrote, in part, quote, "President Trump's America First policy is already paying dividends, especially in the Western Hemisphere. We're sorry John Bolton can't comprehend the president's many successes in just three weeks," end quote. He also cited the president's moves on illegal immigration, drug interdiction and trade in Panama among those successes.
CHANG: Our cohost Juana Summers will have more reporting on the perspectives from Greenlanders from the ground later this month. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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