MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST:
A change in presidential administration used not to be such a big deal, at least not for government lifers - meaning career civil service staffers in the federal government, working for whoever's in charge. Well, that has not been the case with this second Trump administration. Less than a hundred days in, and at many government agencies, dysfunction and chaos are the result of funding cuts, layoffs, executive orders, new people in charge and the speed at which President Trump has moved to enact his agenda.
That is what NPR correspondents who cover the federal government are hearing, and we are going to hear from three of them now. Michele Kelemen is our longtime diplomatic correspondent covering the Department of State. Selena Simmons-Duffin is our health policy correspondent. She covers the Department of Health and Human Services. And Tom Bowman reports on the Pentagon, the Defense Department. Welcome to all three of you.
TOM BOWMAN, BYLINE: Hello.
SELENA SIMMONS-DUFFIN, BYLINE: Hi.
MICHELE KELEMEN, BYLINE: Nice to be here.
KELLY: So Tom, I'm going to let you kick us off because the Pentagon is in the headlines again this week. We have fallout continuing around Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth's fondness for sharing sensitive intel on Signal group chats. We also have news now that several high-level advisers at the Pentagon have departed. What is the climate like there?
BOWMAN: Well, Mary Louise, let me share what a former Pentagon official who served in Trump's first term characterized what we're seeing. He called it, quote, "the height of dysfunction." So you have the top civilian officials - who Hegseth himself brought in - fired or removed, and you have the ongoing problem of classified information being shared with two groups on Signal, one including his wife. It's being investigated by the Pentagon inspector general. And I'm told Hegseth is slow in putting out releases on decisions that have been made, like keeping U.S. troops in Northeast Syria. That was approved by the White House, but it sat on his desk for two weeks.
Also, there's no word on some upcoming high-level appointments like who will take over for the top officer at Central Command, General Erik Kurilla, who leaves this summer. That should have been announced some time ago - so dysfunction, delays, and a sense of unease among the senior ranks because of the abrupt firings of senior officers with no reason given.
KELLY: Michele Kelemen, how does that line up with what you are tracking at the State Department, which I will note is also in the news this week? We have news of a massive reorganization, including a 15% - one-five percent - personnel reduction.
KELEMEN: Yeah, I mean, this is part of Secretary of State Marco Rubio's reorganization plan, but, you know, people were a little bit relieved by it because, actually, some of the proposals that have been floating around would do a lot more to gut the State Department and the professional foreign service. Some of that could still happen. You know, I'm hearing about the possibility of cutting two dozen or more overseas posts, for instance. But this was reorganizing with a particular focus on offices that deal with human rights and democracy, things like that. Rubio says that the functions that are required by U.S. law will continue, but he's moved some of them around in his organizational chart. And he's put one of the offices under the control of the coordinator for foreign assistance, which is currently run by someone connected to DOGE.
KELLY: Selena, what about at the country's many health agencies, which, as you have been reporting for weeks now, are already well into significant job cuts? How are things looking?
SIMMONS-DUFFIN: Yeah, no signs of relief over at the health agencies. Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. announced what he called an overhaul of HHS in late March and sent out reduction-in-force notices to about 10,000 staff members on April 1. And along with the early retirements and other voluntary options, that's a cut of about 25% to HHS staff. And I've been talking to a lot of health agency employees, FDA scientists, senior leaders, policy staff, and the picture that I'm getting is that the full force of the overhaul hasn't been felt yet.
The staff that's left has been working to basically hold up a dam, keep experiments running and money flowing to programs like Meals on Wheels and community clinics. But they don't know how long they can keep doing that. And, you know, some staff that will be fired have been told not to go on leave but to keep working until their jobs officially end on June 2. And when that happens, staff say they expect to see the effects really hit the public all over the country in a big way.
KELLY: Well, let me ask you the why question. Why is Secretary Kennedy doing this? What does he say he's actually trying to accomplish?
SIMMONS-DUFFIN: Well, he says the country's population is not healthy. Life expectancy is lower than in peer countries, which is true. He says that the science that these agencies have been doing hasn't been good quality and hasn't done enough to address those problems. You know, he's very concerned about the food supply, chronic diseases. But the confusing thing is that many of these cuts seem to work at cross purposes to those goals. Like, they cut CDC teams that worked on chronic diseases, for example. And so there's a lot of criticism from within HHS but also health experts beyond that the cuts were done too fast and haphazardly. I did put in a request this week to talk to Kennedy about his vision for HHS and these cuts, and I did not receive a response.
KELLY: Well, Michele Kelemen, I'll put a similar question to you. Has Secretary of State Rubio laid out what he is trying to achieve with U.S. foreign policy with all of these changes at the department he now runs?
KELEMEN: Yeah, I mean, he came in talking about how he wants to make this building the center of foreign policy again and talking about respecting the work that federal workers do. But, you know, since that opening speech, he defended the way the Trump administration dismantled the lead U.S. aid agency. He dismantled the group that's been focused on Chinese and Russian propaganda, accusing them without evidence of silencing American conservatives. And he's been a key figure in the negotiations with El Salvador to jail alleged gang members, and he's been actively revoking visas of international students. You know, these are really highly charged political issues here at home, and it's not a comfortable place for diplomats who pride themselves on being nonpartisan.
KELLY: Tom Bowman, back to the Pentagon - we know that Secretary Hegseth, he has laid out what he says he wants to do. He says the president wants to, quote, "restore the warrior ethos of our military." Do we know what that means? Are we seeing a reshaping of the armed forces into more of a warrior ethos?
BOWMAN: Well, Mary Louise, I don't think there's really any reshaping of the armed forces. Hegseth has signed off on increased physical standards for all troops and separately tougher standards for those in ground combat positions. That's something he pushed for years as a Fox News personality. He claimed that standards have been lowered so women can get into these combat jobs, like infantry, but the Army denies any standards have been lowered. He also claims that there's an increase in recruiting because of Trump, but the Army for more than a year has seen a rise in recruits because of reforms they put in place. You know, Hegseth talks about bringing back a warrior ethos, but I've been going out with soldiers and Marines for two decades in combat zones. That warrior ethos never left.
KELLY: That is NPR's Tom Bowman, Michele Kelemen and Selena Simmons-Duffin. Thanks to you all for your reporting.
BOWMAN: You're welcome.
KELEMEN: Thank you.
SIMMONS-DUFFIN: Thank you. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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